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Messages from 145825

Article: 145825
Subject: Re: Altera data sheets.
From: rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 04:56:25 -0800 (PST)
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On Feb 25, 6:04=A0am, Symon <symon_bre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> If anyone from Altera reads this forum, can they please email/call their
> manual writing & publishing department and complain from me that their
> stupid PDF manuals have occasional pages turned at 90 degrees, e.g. the
> Stratix4 Handbook, page 1-11. This is very annoying, as it means my
> reader displays all the other pages narrower than they would be. I'm
> getting on a bit now, my eyesight isn't what it was, and I'm too
> cantankerous to piss about with the magnifying glass tool. I'm perfectly
> capable of using the special rotate button that the reader provides for
> the odd occasion when the page needs to be turned, in the same way I
> used to be able to turn a book in the good old days. Those dumbasses
> (probably) wouldn't print a book with occasional pages sticking out, why
> do they feel the need to do it with their PDF manuals.
>
> The stupid thing is, doing what they have done, doesn't make the table
> any easier to read on a computer screen than if they'd made the table
> smaller and printed it across the page. It just makes all the other
> pages harder to read. The only time it helps is if some bozo decides
> he's gonna print out 27MB of file, in which case they're probably a
> student and have good eyesight anyway.
>
> This is the only reason stopping me from designing in Altera parts.
> Xilinx have nice PDF files.
>
> Love, Syms.
>
> p.s. There's no charge for this free advice.

Maybe you should instead complain to Adobe about their *stupid* PDF
reading software.  The only reason that the rotated pages are making
the others hard to view is because you are using "fit to page width"
for a magnification.  In lieu of getting either of these multi-
national corporations to change the way they do business, perhaps you
could do a very little leg work yourself.  One is to just view them
with a set magnification which will show all pages at the same zoom
level.  It's not really so hard to do.  You just type in a zoom level
that lets you view the first page to fit the width of the window.

The other method can only be done if Altera has not write or read
protected their data sheets.  You can use a PDF editing tool to
actually rotate the page in the document and then save it so it will
be forever fixed.  If you find that Altera's data sheets are write
protected, then you are screwed.  I have seen some data sheets that
are *read* protected, or more accurately, copy protected.  Yes, they
prevent you from using select, copy and paste to pull any information
out of the document.  I find that insane and it drives me pretty much
up a wall.  If I want to quote something from a data sheet, such as a
part number for ordering, I want to *COPY* it so as to eliminate the
possibility of a transcription error.  With part number containing
some 12 or more digits and letters, it is oh so easy to mess it up.
Even more interesting is when I find a document that is protected in
some way, but they forgot to password protect it, so I can turn off
the protection...  But I think you can use some third party tools to
get around the password protection.  After all, if you can read the
document so that it can be viewed, you can always copy and/or edit
it.  The "protection" is just a switch in the program you are reading
it with.

BTW, you can blame all of this on the community standardizing on a
proprietary document format instead of open source.  There seem to be
open source tools for PDF files now, but it has taken a long time and
most people don't know about them.

Rick

Article: 145826
Subject: Xilinx XPS crash on Linux
From: pes <dontspamme@thanks.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:53:23 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Hi,

I want to test Microblaze processor with Xilinx tools.

After creating a MicroBlaze project with the Xilinx Platform Studio, the 
application crashes. Same crash happens when I open this project.

I use Mandriva 2010 32b and Xilinx support doesn' t help me since I have 
an unsupported OS.

I get this message with $dmesg after the crash :

xpsgui[21688]: segfault at 5 ip b60a2f38 sp bfbb7b60 error 4 in 
libxml2.so.2.7.6[b6033000+135000]

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you

Article: 145827
Subject: Re: EDK spi ip core
From: "RCIngham" <robert.ingham@n_o_s_p_a_m.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:00:18 -0600
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
>
>1. If I look at the spartan 3a 3400 dsp evaluation board schematic there
is
>as SPI EEPROM. Looking at the part number it is a part number for a FLASH
>by Microchip(M25P16-VMW6G).
>
>2. Looking at this example xspi_stm_flash_example.c though he mentions
the
>same part number M25P16. 
>  Then why the name SPI EEPROM??????
>

Why SPI? Because the part is accessed via an SPI interface?

Why EEPROM? Because "Flash" indicates a sub-type of "Electrically Erasable
Programmable Read-Only Memory" that can be erased either in total or large
segments. 

It appears that not everyone is old enough to remember "non-Flash"
EEPROMs.

HTH!
	   
					
---------------------------------------		
Posted through http://www.FPGARelated.com

Article: 145828
Subject: Re: Altera data sheets.
From: "RCIngham" <robert.ingham@n_o_s_p_a_m.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:06:23 -0600
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
<big snip!>
>
>BTW, you can blame all of this on the community standardizing on a
>proprietary document format instead of open source.  There seem to be
>open source tools for PDF files now, but it has taken a long time and
>most people don't know about them.
>
>Rick
>

PDF is now a 'proper' standard: ISO 32000-1:2008.
	   
					
---------------------------------------		
Posted through http://www.FPGARelated.com

Article: 145829
Subject: Re: Altera data sheets.
From: Symon <symon_brewer@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:07:27 +0000
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On 2/25/2010 12:56 PM, rickman wrote:
>
> Maybe you should instead complain to Adobe about their *stupid* PDF
> reading software.


As I use Foxit, that wouldn't help very much, would it?



Article: 145830
Subject: Re: EDK spi ip core
From: james <bubba@bud.u>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:38:57 -0500
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:00:18 -0600, "RCIngham"
<robert.ingham@n_o_s_p_a_m.gmail.com> wrote:

|It appears that not everyone is old enough to remember "non-Flash"
|EEPROMs.
|===============

I remember the old days of 2708 EPROMS. Those were a great step up
from the old TTL PROMS. What a radicle idea then to use UV light to
erase and then reprogram. 

james

Article: 145831
Subject: Re: Altera data sheets.
From: Symon <symon_brewer@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:43:26 +0000
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On 2/25/2010 12:56 PM, rickman wrote:
>
> The other method can only be done if Altera has not write or read
> protected their data sheets.  You can use a PDF editing tool to
> actually rotate the page in the document and then save it so it will
> be forever fixed.

Actually, that provoked me. You need Acrobat professional. Which isn't free.


File-> Create PDF -> from file

Document -> Rotate Pages ->
     Counterclockwise 90 degrees
     Landscape pages

Lovely. Maybe I will use their parts after all. It's still dumb the way 
they publish the PDFs.

Syms.

Article: 145832
Subject: Re: EDK spi ip core
From: johnp <jprovidenza@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:01:00 -0800 (PST)
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On Feb 25, 6:38=A0am, james <bu...@bud.u> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:00:18 -0600, "RCIngham"
>
> <robert.ingham@n_o_s_p_a_m.gmail.com> wrote:
>
> |It appears that not everyone is old enough to remember "non-Flash"
> |EEPROMs.
> |=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> I remember the old days of 2708 EPROMS. Those were a great step up
> from the old TTL PROMS. What a radicle idea then to use UV light to
> erase and then reprogram.
>
> james

2708?  Those were to easy to program.  Try the old 1702A... -48V
programming.  Ouch.  As I recall,
the Intel programmer had big power transistors.  Touch to program, but
a whooping 256 bytes of memory.

John Providenza

Article: 145833
Subject: Re: Scrubbing in Virtex-4
From: he <novalid@ddres.se>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:12:38 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
> According to XAPP1088, pag.18:
> "For scrubbing operations, there are special considerations for designs
> utilizing distributed RAMs and SRL16s. When a LUT is configured as either
> SRL16 or distributed RAM (LUT RAM), scrubbing can corrupt the contents of
> such primitives if GLUTMASK_B bit is left at its default setting of
> �1�. Therefore, it is important to ensure the GLUTMASK_B bit is set to
> �0�. Block RAM content, however, is not covered by the GLUTMASK_B
> setting. Therefore, block RAM content configuration columns still need to
> be avoided during scrubbing."

I avoided these problems by not using SRLs and cutting BRAM contents out
of the partial bitfiles. This also makes reconfiguration faster, because
the bitfiles become significantly smaller.

 > How can we know if a LUT is configured in one of these modes?

Do you need to? Have you tried reconfiguring your SRLs with the
GLUTMASK_B bit set accordingly?

-HE

Article: 145834
Subject: Re: Altera data sheets.
From: "Phil Jessop" <phil@noname.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:32:22 -0000
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>

"Symon" <symon_brewer@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:hm62ai$hlr$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 2/25/2010 12:56 PM, rickman wrote:
>>
>> The other method can only be done if Altera has not write or read
>> protected their data sheets.  You can use a PDF editing tool to
>> actually rotate the page in the document and then save it so it will
>> be forever fixed.
>
> Actually, that provoked me. You need Acrobat professional. Which isn't 
> free.
>
>
> File-> Create PDF -> from file
>
> Document -> Rotate Pages ->
>     Counterclockwise 90 degrees
>     Landscape pages
>
> Lovely. Maybe I will use their parts after all. It's still dumb the way 
> they publish the PDFs.
>
> Syms.


If you are using the Foxit reader then load the doc, go to View => Rotate 
View => clock or anticlock as desired.





Article: 145835
Subject: Re: using an FPGA to emulate a vintage computer
From: Eric Chomko <pne.chomko@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:34:04 -0800 (PST)
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On Feb 24, 6:20=A0pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/02/2010 19:31, in article
> d902c75e-e33a-4281-a796-7c56c3276...@o16g2000prh.googlegroups.com, "Eric
>
>
>
> Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On Feb 23, 2:07 pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 23/02/2010 17:52, in article
> >> 3ec03225-3a0f-4bcd-9db1-51201d1b3...@w12g2000vbj.googlegroups.com, "Er=
ic
>
> >> Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>> But an ALGOL "activation record" (stack frame) had a lot more than
> >>> that. As I recall, they copied a lot more just pointers and parameter
> >>> values.
>
> >> Just the usual red tape: return address, frame pointer of caller; and =
either
> >> a static pointer or some housekeeping for 'display' registers (if used=
) to
> >> access non-locals. But bear in mind that in decent languages arrays ar=
e
> >> storable values, so a value array parameter gets copied in toto, unlik=
e C.
>
> > Are you saying that C doesn't implement true recursion? I have only
> > used recursion in college and not with C. ALGOL, SIMPL-T and LISP were
> > the only languages I used to write recursive algorithms.
>
> No. I'm at a loss as to how you could put that interpretation on it.

Perhaps I misunderstood your reference, "unlike C".  As I recall the
difference between a global and local variable in a block-structured
language is that a global is statically stored like all FORTRAN IV
variables. And locals get put onto the stack with each call to the
function and are dynamically allocated. It is this last aspect that
allows recursion to occur other than allowing a function to call
itself.

>
> I'm saying that array parameters in C are not called by value, but they a=
re
> in Algol 60 and cognate languages, requiring more stack space than C does=
.

Doesn't a C stack frame contain a lot less than an ALGOL activation
record other than just parameter information?


Article: 145836
Subject: Re: using an FPGA to emulate a vintage computer
From: Eric Chomko <pne.chomko@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:38:18 -0800 (PST)
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On Feb 24, 6:50=A0pm, Joe Pfeiffer <pfeif...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
> Eric Chomko <pne.cho...@comcast.net> writes:
> > On Feb 23, 2:07=A0pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 23/02/2010 17:52, in article
> >> 3ec03225-3a0f-4bcd-9db1-51201d1b3...@w12g2000vbj.googlegroups.com, "Er=
ic
>
> >> Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> > But an ALGOL "activation record" (stack frame) had a lot more than
> >> > that. As I recall, they copied a lot more just pointers and paramete=
r
> >> > values.
>
> >> Just the usual red tape: return address, frame pointer of caller; and =
either
> >> a static pointer or some housekeeping for 'display' registers (if used=
) to
> >> access non-locals. But bear in mind that in decent languages arrays ar=
e
> >> storable values, so a value array parameter gets copied in toto, unlik=
e C.
>
> > Are you saying that C doesn't implement true recursion? I have only
> > used recursion in college and not with C. ALGOL, SIMPL-T and LISP were
> > the only languages I used to write recursive algorithms.
>
> Yes, C does recursion. =A0Local variables are also on the stack.

I figured it did, but the "unlike C" comment above through me for a
loop! :)

Article: 145837
Subject: Re: Altera data sheets.
From: Symon <symon_brewer@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:59:46 +0000
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On 2/25/2010 5:32 PM, Phil Jessop wrote:
>
>
> If you are using the Foxit reader then load the doc, go to View =>  Rotate
> View =>  clock or anticlock as desired.
>
>
>
>
Did you even read my rant?

Load this:-

http://www.altera.com/literature/hb/stratix-iv/stx4_siv51001.pdf

Look at the small writing because of the stupid wasted grey bits at the 
sides of the page. (My Adobe reader only does the grey bits if you 
scroll down to page 11. But then it's stuck in dumbass mode.)



They can do it right sometimes.

http://www.altera.com/literature/hb/stratix-iv/stx4_5v4.pdf

No stupid grey bits, and bigger writing.

Grrrr.

Regards, Syms.



Article: 145838
Subject: Re: using an FPGA to emulate a vintage computer
From: scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date: 25 Feb 2010 18:33:05 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>Eric Chomko <pne.chomko@comcast.net> writes:
>
>> On Feb 23, 2:07pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 23/02/2010 17:52, in article
>>> 3ec03225-3a0f-4bcd-9db1-51201d1b3...@w12g2000vbj.googlegroups.com, "Eric
>>>
>>> Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> > But an ALGOL "activation record" (stack frame) had a lot more than
>>> > that. As I recall, they copied a lot more just pointers and parameter
>>> > values.
>>>
>>> Just the usual red tape: return address, frame pointer of caller; and either
>>> a static pointer or some housekeeping for 'display' registers (if used) to
>>> access non-locals. But bear in mind that in decent languages arrays are
>>> storable values, so a value array parameter gets copied in toto, unlike C.
>>>
>>
>> Are you saying that C doesn't implement true recursion? I have only
>> used recursion in college and not with C. ALGOL, SIMPL-T and LISP were
>> the only languages I used to write recursive algorithms.
>
>Yes, C does recursion.  Local variables are also on the stack.

More precisely, variables with non-file scope declared implicitly
or explicitly automatic, are on the stack.   Variables with non-file
scope can still be declared static, if desired.


int
f(int a, int b)
{
   int   c;           /*  Implicit auto: on stack */
   auto int d;        /*  Explicit auto: on stack */
   static int e;      /*  Explicit static: in data section */

   return a + b;
}

Article: 145839
Subject: Re: How a state machine is constructed using latches?
From: Andy <jonesandy@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:34:17 -0800 (PST)
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On Feb 25, 5:49=A0am, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If the combinatorial logic had been described in the sequential
> process, there would have been no possibility of generating a latch.

Amen!

Andy

Article: 145840
Subject: Re: FPGA platform??
From: Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:45:09 -0800 (PST)
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On Feb 23, 8:13 am, Thomas Stanka <usenet_nospam_va...@stanka-web.de>
wrote:
> On 22 Feb., 14:12, "JuNNi" <m_junaid_muzam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> For general digital design (and especially frontend of code entry and
> simulation) professionals use often Linux/Solaris when it comes to
> complex and large designs.
>

In fact, Altera dropped support for Solaris on SPARC since version 8.0
(2 years ago?). Solaris on x386/AMD64 was never supported.
I don't follow Xilinx all that closely but I think their situation
with regard to Solaris support is identical to Altera's.

Article: 145841
Subject: Re: using an FPGA to emulate a vintage computer
From: "(see below)" <yaldnif.w@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 19:52:37 +0000
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On 24/02/2010 20:37, in article hm6fbd68gp@news6.newsguy.com, "Michael
Wojcik" <mwojcik@newsguy.com> wrote:

> (see below) wrote:
>> 
>> Just the usual red tape: return address, frame pointer of caller; and either
>> a static pointer or some housekeeping for 'display' registers (if used) to
>> access non-locals. But bear in mind that in decent languages arrays are
>> storable values, so a value array parameter gets copied in toto, unlike C.
> 
> It will be in C if the array is wrapped in a struct. Letting array

That is passing a struct, not an array.

> parameters decay to pointers was a feature of early C that couldn't be
> changed for historical reasons, but when the standardization committee
> added support for struct parameters, they made them first-class.
 
> struct (and not the misnamed "typedef") is C's mechanism for creating
> new types and ADTs, so if you want a pass-by-value array in C, the
> correct thing to do is to put it in a struct.

Yes. Preposterous, isn't it?

> This is not to say that C's parameter passing doesn't still have a
> number of infelicities. Exposing the use of pointers to implement
> pass-by-reference (which C lacks, strictly speaking) has some
> advantages, but it has led to great confusion over matters like the
> const and restrict qualifiers.

To say the least of it.

-- 
Bill Findlay
<surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk



Article: 145842
Subject: Re: using an FPGA to emulate a vintage computer
From: "(see below)" <yaldnif.w@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 19:59:39 +0000
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On 25/02/2010 17:34, in article
e8b9b29d-a8fe-4b4a-8365-ffccf6321bdd@o3g2000yqb.googlegroups.com, "Eric
Chomko" <pne.chomko@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Feb 24, 6:20pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/02/2010 19:31, in article
>> d902c75e-e33a-4281-a796-7c56c3276...@o16g2000prh.googlegroups.com, "Eric
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> On Feb 23, 2:07 pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 23/02/2010 17:52, in article
>>>> 3ec03225-3a0f-4bcd-9db1-51201d1b3...@w12g2000vbj.googlegroups.com, "Eric
>> 
>>>> Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> But an ALGOL "activation record" (stack frame) had a lot more than
>>>>> that. As I recall, they copied a lot more just pointers and parameter
>>>>> values.
>> 
>>>> Just the usual red tape: return address, frame pointer of caller; and
>>>> either
>>>> a static pointer or some housekeeping for 'display' registers (if used) to
>>>> access non-locals. But bear in mind that in decent languages arrays are
>>>> storable values, so a value array parameter gets copied in toto, unlike C.
>> 
>>> Are you saying that C doesn't implement true recursion? I have only
>>> used recursion in college and not with C. ALGOL, SIMPL-T and LISP were
>>> the only languages I used to write recursive algorithms.
>> 
>> No. I'm at a loss as to how you could put that interpretation on it.
> 
> Perhaps I misunderstood your reference, "unlike C".  As I recall the
> difference between a global and local variable in a block-structured
> language is that a global is statically stored like all FORTRAN IV
> variables. And locals get put onto the stack with each call to the
> function and are dynamically allocated. It is this last aspect that
> allows recursion to occur other than allowing a function to call
> itself.

True, but I'm still at a loss. How does "so a value array *parameter* gets
copied in toto, unlike C" lead you to a consideration of the scope and
lifetime of *variables*?

>> I'm saying that array parameters in C are not called by value, but they are
>> in Algol 60 and cognate languages, requiring more stack space than C does.
> 
> 
> Doesn't a C stack frame contain a lot less than an ALGOL activation
> record other than just parameter information?

If you mean the obligatory stuff to implement procedure calls, no, it
doesn't; with the possible exception of a static pointer/display (needed in
very recent C dialects, but not in versions lacking nested scopes).

-- 
Bill Findlay
<surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk



Article: 145843
Subject: Re: Xilinx XPS crash on Linux
From: Alan Fitch <apf@invalid.invalid>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:00:17 +0000
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On 25/02/10 13:53, pes wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I want to test Microblaze processor with Xilinx tools.
> 
> After creating a MicroBlaze project with the Xilinx Platform Studio, the 
> application crashes. Same crash happens when I open this project.
> 
> I use Mandriva 2010 32b and Xilinx support doesn' t help me since I have 
> an unsupported OS.
> 
> I get this message with $dmesg after the crash :
> 
> xpsgui[21688]: segfault at 5 ip b60a2f38 sp bfbb7b60 error 4 in 
> libxml2.so.2.7.6[b6033000+135000]
> 
> Any help would be much appreciated.
> 
> Thank you

Plan A.
Install a supported OS inside a virtual machine (e.g. VMWare)

Plan B.

Find out the correct version of libxml2.so from a supported OS.
Get hold of a copy.
Put it in a directory.
Modify the Xilinx launch script to fiddle with LD_LIBRARY_PATH so your
"special place" is prepended.

No guarantees though...

regards
Alan


-- 
Alan Fitch

Article: 145844
Subject: Re: using an FPGA to emulate a vintage computer
From: Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:42:10 -0600
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Eric Chomko wrote:

> 
> Are you saying that C doesn't implement true recursion? I have only
> used recursion in college and not with C. ALGOL, SIMPL-T and LISP were
> the only languages I used to write recursive algorithms.
> 
I think he's saying C doesn't, by default, copy entire arrays, it 
defaults to passing a pointer to the array.  If a recursive procedure 
NEEDS the array to be copied, there are mechanisms to do that.  But, of 
course, copying the pointer only is more efficient both in time and memory.

Jon

Article: 145845
Subject: Re: using an FPGA to emulate a vintage computer
From: glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:32:24 +0000 (UTC)
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
In comp.arch.fpga Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote:
> Eric Chomko wrote:
 
>> Are you saying that C doesn't implement true recursion? I have only
>> used recursion in college and not with C. ALGOL, SIMPL-T and LISP were
>> the only languages I used to write recursive algorithms.
 
> I think he's saying C doesn't, by default, copy entire arrays, it 
> defaults to passing a pointer to the array.  If a recursive procedure 
> NEEDS the array to be copied, there are mechanisms to do that.  But, of 
> course, copying the pointer only is more efficient both in time and memory.

But local arrays are automatic in C.  I would think that would
usually work fine for recursion.  K&R required initialized arrays
to be static, which doesn't seem like a bad requirement to me.
(Fortran requires all initialized variables to be static.)

-- glen

Article: 145846
Subject: Re: antti alive message
From: -jg <jim.granville@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:02:19 -0800 (PST)
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On Feb 25, 11:18=A0pm, Antti <antti.luk...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> but the time til embedded is just crazy all things happening at worst tim=
e.. as usual :)

So what's going to be new @ embedded ? ;)

-jg

Article: 145847
Subject: Re: EDK spi ip core
From: austin <austin@xilinx.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:04:16 -0800 (PST)
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
John,

I just love the Dilbert cartoon where they try to out-do each other
about the 'old days:'

"I used to program in 1's and 0's!"

"That's nothing, all we had were l's and O's ( small letter L and
capital letter O)"

"Heck, all I had were 0's...."

Yes, I have some 1702's, along with the 4004 4 bit CPU, and some 2102
SRAM devices Intel handed out to customers to "introduce" them to the
microcomputer.

I just remember that if you put the 1702 in the socket rotated 180
degrees, it blew out all the bond wires.  Someone came to the lab one
day saying "did you know that the EPROM lights up when you program
it?"

Austin

Article: 145848
Subject: Re: using an FPGA to emulate a vintage computer
From: scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date: 25 Feb 2010 23:26:42 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
"(see below)" <yaldnif.w@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>On 24/02/2010 20:37, in article hm6fbd68gp@news6.newsguy.com, "Michael
>Wojcik" <mwojcik@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>> (see below) wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just the usual red tape: return address, frame pointer of caller; and either
>>> a static pointer or some housekeeping for 'display' registers (if used) to
>>> access non-locals. But bear in mind that in decent languages arrays are
>>> storable values, so a value array parameter gets copied in toto, unlike C.
>> 
>> It will be in C if the array is wrapped in a struct. Letting array
>
>That is passing a struct, not an array.
>
>> parameters decay to pointers was a feature of early C that couldn't be
>> changed for historical reasons, but when the standardization committee
>> added support for struct parameters, they made them first-class.
> 
>> struct (and not the misnamed "typedef") is C's mechanism for creating
>> new types and ADTs, so if you want a pass-by-value array in C, the
>> correct thing to do is to put it in a struct.
>
>Yes. Preposterous, isn't it?

Q?  Why would anyone want to pass an array by value?

scott


Article: 145849
Subject: Re: using an FPGA to emulate a vintage computer
From: "(see below)" <yaldnif.w@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:32:38 +0000
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On 25/02/2010 23:26, in article SGDhn.70229$Hk6.39325@news.usenetserver.com,
"Scott Lurndal" <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> "(see below)" <yaldnif.w@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>> On 24/02/2010 20:37, in article hm6fbd68gp@news6.newsguy.com, "Michael
>> Wojcik" <mwojcik@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> (see below) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Just the usual red tape: return address, frame pointer of caller; and
>>>> either
>>>> a static pointer or some housekeeping for 'display' registers (if used) to
>>>> access non-locals. But bear in mind that in decent languages arrays are
>>>> storable values, so a value array parameter gets copied in toto, unlike C.
>>> 
>>> It will be in C if the array is wrapped in a struct. Letting array
>> 
>> That is passing a struct, not an array.
>> 
>>> parameters decay to pointers was a feature of early C that couldn't be
>>> changed for historical reasons, but when the standardization committee
>>> added support for struct parameters, they made them first-class.
>> 
>>> struct (and not the misnamed "typedef") is C's mechanism for creating
>>> new types and ADTs, so if you want a pass-by-value array in C, the
>>> correct thing to do is to put it in a struct.
>> 
>> Yes. Preposterous, isn't it?
> 
> Q?  Why would anyone want to pass an array by value?

Why would anyone want to wrap an array in a struct and pass that by value?

-- 
Bill Findlay
<surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk





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